I also think the message the current provinicial gov’t of “not marking” for lateness, can’t give kids a zero etc. is pure garbage. I find today’s kids are lazy, selfish and a sense of entitlement is a right.

I really wish the think-tanks would go back to a more structured educational component. Reading, writing, math, science and phys.ed should be MANDATORY.

Grade 3 is when we first learned our multiplication table. I, being the foolish kid, decided I’d avoid learning this crazy table of numbers. And from that stupid choice, I was lagging behind everyone else in the future years of elementary school, resulting in a 45-55 in grade 8 math.

Now how is this related? I managed to enter high school absolutely fearing my grade 9 mathematics class, worried that I’d do horribly and essentially fail. Turns out I managed to get somewhere around 85, and in grade 10 and 11 I would be around the class average. Now I’m going to admit my mathetmatic skills are still quite poor, however the fact that I was able to catch up to the average joe, without knowing fundemental concepts from elementary school… shows how redundant our elementary school education is.

Brendan, essentially I’m saying that even doing well/bad in elementary school essentially means nothing. Your idea holds true to grade 9 and 10, however elementary school habits really make no difference. You can catch up in grade 9.

Back to your article, in paragraph 4, I think you might have made a bit of misinterpretation with the ministry believing that “Calculus is the reason for overall dropout rates”. I think what they meant was the dropout rates specifically for those courses are high (since they do have statistics on that).

The idea of calculus not being essential for certain fields of study, does still have merit. You have a good idea going on about there being a separate 12 mathetmatics course, and a separate calculus course as an option. Personally, I will be needing my calculus for my field of study in Architecture at Carleton (they take a civil engineering 1st year course), but when I think about how my sister was forced to take calculus for her program at U of T (happens to be Architecture too, just very different program) where absolutely nowhere does her calculus show up. It’s redundant for her to take calc, and I wouldn’t be suprised if she dropped the course if it were ever to be taken off as a requirement for her program.

Calculus is not that bad, but to the average monkey who just needs it strictly as a requirement for application (not a requirement for actually furthering education in university) it is a hell. You don’t see the kid wanting to go into Fine Arts taking AP Physics, why should we be getting students who wont use this advanced Calculus knowledge ever in their future to be taking this course just for “requirement” sake? No, this course is not for everyone. But we can’t simply remove it from the system just because people are complaining about its difficulty. Calculus does have it’s value.

We can’t judge in binary. It’s not simply “calculus is too hard, thus rid calculus”. These little issues that come up like calculus being too difficult for students who dont need it, there should be alternatives. In a chess tournament with categories like beginner and advanced, we can’t rid “advanced” just because the intermediate kids cant handle it. Why not make an “intermediate” category?

Anyway, there have been times when I’ve wondered why it is that I don’t find calculus particularly difficult, why I don’t “fear” 12U Calc as much as the vast majority of other grade 12s do. Is it all in the mind – pulling a Descartes: “I think, therefore I am?” Perhaps Calc actually is a difficult subject to master, and so it should indeed be taken out. I might think the latter – that somehow God has instilled the gift of math to a select few – but then I take a look at the rest of the world, where calculus is an integral (haha) part of high school curricula. So then, is it that Ontario kids are just dumber than all the other kids? Unlikely.
I could also say that the entire jk-12 Ontario curriculum de-emphasizes math from jk-10, then bombards us with material in 11-12. To some extent, that was my experience. But I couldn’t logically conclude this for every student, seeing as my jk-4 curriculum was an “old” version, and since I’ve entered high school, the jk-8 curriculum has revamped itself again (though admittedly only to a small degree). In fact, looking back at my math classes, they’ve all been accelerated in one form or another, and I’ve therefore never encountered a serious problem in terms of failing a math course. Hmm. And math has always been the subject of most importance in my family; I’m a born and raised girl math geek (without stepping foot in Kumon!). Alas, only the truly lucky (or truly damned, your choise) are like this. So then, what causes so many kids to fail/drop calculus? This topic is worthy of an anthropologist’s research, because honestly, (heh – after all that wordiness) I don’t know.

i don’t fear calculus, really. [okay, maybe i fear trig derivatives but that's because i like to complain] and i -know- it’s not difficult.. so why am i mingling with the old geezers and the potheads? because i’m damned lazy, that’s why.

the problem should be addressed at the roots– by re-implementing the ancient chinese art of .punishment. make the students fear: not math, but the math teachers. if mr wang had whipped me, perhaps i might have done my homework.

our government is crappy, but our crappy population put it in power. i blame myself for being lazy, not the government for instilling a fear of math. Our socialist education system spawns such ungratefulness for education, but at least the opportunity to learn is -there-. oh, if only i were more chinese.. i ought to have been beaten as a child.

even as i ramble nonsensically onwards right this instant, i ought to be doing my calculus homework. or possibly studying for my IB test.

actually. ..no. i was about to wander off on another tangent. but i think i’ll go study instead. this makes no sense. sorry. ap english, baby..

To agree with you, I believe that to solve the problem with the difficulty of the grade 12 math does not lie in the difficulty of the material, but rather the time that has been wasted at the elementary level. I don’t believe there is a general and widespread fear of mathematics, as most people I speak to about elementary often say that Math was their “best” subject. However, they, like myself, found it to be extremely different once they have come to high school. This has caused the problem that students were not accustomed to the fact that in order to be a good mathematics student, they must practice the math being taught (in other words: doing their homework). However, in the past, namely in elementary and including grade 9 and 10, most students had gotten away with never doing their homework, never listening in class and getting a respectable, if not commendable mark.

Currently there are other options for grade 12 mathematics, it lies at the college level. But because it has the college tag applied to it, students that do not need mathematics in University for the program of their choice do not take it. Instead they leave mathematics behind and move onto University.

On another problem, I believe that the tags we have put onto the courses should simply be removed. As a society, we have put the word “University” on a high pedestal. It is now a common belief that if you do not go to “Univeristy” you are a failure at life. You are told to go to University so that you will get a good University, allowing you to get a good job and a good salary. The current way the school system is built, that is the message that is sent. No one ever aspires to do anything with their hands anymore (by doing something with their hands, I mean trades: carpentry for example). Look at the glory of RHHS. The school is the new generation of purely academic pursuit. We don’t have a shop and all 2000 of our students do not know how to use a hand drill. In fact do not even know that there are better tools to use than a cordless drill to drill a hole in a small piece of plastic with (to recognize this, you don’t have to go far, look at the physics projects being produced – or even computer engineering final projects – they’re hidious). Instead of doing things with their hands, the current school system has condemmed some courses from being taken because they do not carry the glorious “University” tag on the end of it. Instead, when the student chooses courses for nest year, they do not choose courses that they are interesting in, rather they choose 6 courses with the Universty tag attached to it, because it would be shameful to take an “M” course for personal interest.

on a side note, i owe you lunch because of our bet =P